tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2610048045429850012.post3439021210775541152..comments2024-01-18T12:05:22.620-05:00Comments on Stop BDS at the <br> Park Slope Food Coop: Stigmatizing anti-Semitic LanguageThe Stop BDS Teamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10494552759267397327noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2610048045429850012.post-32499221272338083702013-08-04T02:59:33.299-04:002013-08-04T02:59:33.299-04:00Barbara, absolutely so. Perhaps the real problem i...Barbara, absolutely so. Perhaps the real problem is that so many articulate people (or at least so many with access to the public's ear) have this blind spot when it comes to Jews and Israel. Sense applied to almost any other group by those who see themselves as 'liberals' on these matters goes out the window in this case. <br /><br />That is what gives grief.<br /><br />As I wrote to another who couldn't see this point, they had no idea how I longed (as part of the 0.25% of the world population she found so problematic) to be so unimportant as to ignorable by her.Brian Goldfarbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2610048045429850012.post-74107632777404360942013-08-04T02:45:50.673-04:002013-08-04T02:45:50.673-04:00Brian -
Thanks for clarifying. If I understand yo...Brian -<br /><br />Thanks for clarifying. If I understand you, there are lots of horrible things that human beings have done to other human beings. I don't think his article would be any less relevant had there been no Shoah, and he only the Russian persecution of Jews to refer to. <br /><br />P-EG's point, if I understand, is the role of language as a facilitator of violence. He is responding to one specific instance as the example. I think P-EG's objection is that we have sensitivity to hate-motifs when used against other groups, but not when used against Jews.<br /><br />It's all so complicated. <br /><br />BarbaraThe Stop BDS Teamhttp://stopbdsparkslope.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2610048045429850012.post-28637661537051057192013-08-03T13:14:55.781-04:002013-08-03T13:14:55.781-04:00I'll try to elaborate, Barbara. Helen Fein in ...I'll try to elaborate, Barbara. Helen Fein in the book cited above (and not her alone) is seeking to widen the argument beyond the question of just counting bodies (even though this is important) and also seeking to widen the scope of the notion of "intent". <br /><br />Thus the Nazis had the intent of killing all of Europe's Jews - and they managed to kill 2/3rds of them. Undoubtedly, had they retained control of the space they conquered, they would have murdered all those who failed to physically escape the area of conquest.<br /><br />BUT (and it's a big but) plenty of regimes have attempted to commit cultural genocide, by denying the opportunity for a cultural group to pass on their culture. Thus, the forced conversion of the Jews by both Spain and Portugal; the banning of Catalan by the Franco regime, also in Spain; I've already mentioned the 'deculturalisation' (more like brutalisation) of African-American slaves, both on the Middle Passage and on the plantations...and so forth. There have also been many attempts to destroy groups which have failed only because the means weren't there, even though the intent was (to say the least, the Federal Government's attitudes and policies towards Native-Americans in the 19th Century comes perilously close to a mixture of both cultural and biological genocide on occasions. <br /><br />I could everyone stiff by going on, but I'll stop there. Hope that comes closer to explaining my point. I think that P-EG is too intent on proving Sullivan wrong as far as his comparison is concerned, and thus overstates his general thesis. Brian Goldfarbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2610048045429850012.post-11981227974113408752013-07-31T00:28:12.080-04:002013-07-31T00:28:12.080-04:00...And I forgot to say I liked that anti-Semite fl......And I forgot to say I liked that anti-Semite flow sheet you linked too. I had seen it before, but it is a pleasure to see again.The Stop BDS Teamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10494552759267397327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2610048045429850012.post-57904540752448954302013-07-31T00:26:31.971-04:002013-07-31T00:26:31.971-04:00Hi Brian -
Thanks for stopping by. Yes, I know n...Hi Brian -<br /><br />Thanks for stopping by. Yes, I know normblog (which I like a lot - all though half I don't understand because it is about British things) I had the pleasure to meet Norm in NYC last year at the YIVO conference on Jews and the Left.<br /><br />I don't quite understand what you mean by "focusing too narrowly." Care to elaborate?<br /><br />Barbara<br /><br />The Stop BDS Teamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10494552759267397327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2610048045429850012.post-2167443892811986912013-07-31T00:17:35.838-04:002013-07-31T00:17:35.838-04:00Yes. I need to edit my post.Yes. I need to edit my post.The Stop BDS Teamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10494552759267397327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2610048045429850012.post-90691248474287369202013-07-30T23:50:08.421-04:002013-07-30T23:50:08.421-04:00Thanks for posting this. BTW, the website is now w...Thanks for posting this. BTW, the website is now working. The Wifely Personhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03255569339784573469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2610048045429850012.post-38142275895786588742013-07-30T11:43:32.017-04:002013-07-30T11:43:32.017-04:00Thank you, Barbara, for this excellent article.
H...Thank you, Barbara, for this excellent article.<br /><br />However (why comment unless there's a 'however'?), I have two comments to make.<br /><br />The first comes when Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry (P-EG) says "The Holocaust stands out among all of the events on the long list of human horrors as unique in its evil." Some years back, while he was still Professor of Political Philosophy at manchester University (in the UK), Norman Geras (now publisher of normblog - worth checking out) ran a once-a-term seminar on the Holocaust aimed at academics and grad students. One of paper-givers commented, in passing, that the Holocaust might not have been unique (a topic of much discussion in that company), but it was possibly unprecedented. This triggered me to write a paper for the seminar (later revised to become a paper at my professional association's annual conference) on this very topic, arguing for the unprecedented nature of the Holocaust.<br /><br />This links into my second comment. It comes where P-EG says "The Holocaust was the first time that a genocide was designed and executed in a complete, systematic fashion, using scientific, innovative means of destruction. Its goals were universal. It mobilized all of the authorities, civil and military, of the regime, and indeed the whole society." He argues (and isn't the first to do so) that Nazi Germany, inheriting all the machinery of an advanced industrial society, was able to mobilise the whole of society for evil ends, and to great effect. It needs to be noted that he also acknowledges that Mao and Stalin killed more people, but doesn't see this as significant. He appears to rest his argument on the NRA, for example, not being an ethnic group. But nor have have many other groups marked out for mass attack: Mao's and Stalin's victims, for example, even though huge numbers were killed. <br /><br />While it's clear that he is taking aim at Sullivan and his elision between the NRA and the "Israel lobby", it's still important to argue that P-EG is focussing too narrowly. Helen Fein ("Genocide: A Sociological perspective", 1993) includes 'cultural genocide' in her definition: many imperialist powers attempted, with more or less success, to destroy pre-existing culture and replace it with another. We need witness only the de- and re-culturisation of African-Americans to note this.<br /> <br />In conclusion, P-EG might wish to refer Sullivan to the following, only half-joking, as a way of educating himself on why his question was wrong: http://www.talkingsquid.net/archives/1702<br />Brian Goldfarbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2610048045429850012.post-27197885373304952632013-07-30T09:57:13.980-04:002013-07-30T09:57:13.980-04:00Wow, this was a fabulous article and so well layed...Wow, this was a fabulous article and so well layed out.<br />thank you Barb for finding it and posting.avishayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13394290552914261823noreply@blogger.com